"/>
"/>
01 / 景觀與建筑的邊界
Landscape And Architecture
█ Sn?hetta的設(shè)計(jì)作品模糊了建筑與景觀的邊界，特別是在Oslo Opera House項(xiàng)目中體現(xiàn)的尤為明顯，比起一個(gè)建筑，它更像是一個(gè)有功能的藝術(shù)品。您能否分享一下你們是如何在設(shè)計(jì)中融合多學(xué)科的？
In Sn?hetta’s projects, there is no boundary between architecture and landscape architecture, especially in the famous project, Oslo Opera House. It's more like art but has functions. Could you tell us a little bit about this discipline?
M：Oslo Opera House是一個(gè)很好的例子，當(dāng)我加入團(tuán)隊(duì)時(shí)它就已經(jīng)建成了。
我們公司主要有兩個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)理念。一方面，Sn?hetta對(duì)于跨學(xué)科的合作很感興趣。我們團(tuán)隊(duì)中有建筑師、景觀設(shè)計(jì)師、室內(nèi)設(shè)計(jì)師、平面和產(chǎn)品設(shè)計(jì)師，每個(gè)人都有不同的觀點(diǎn)和背景。在設(shè)計(jì)中，我們不會(huì)以消解建筑和景觀之間的差異為目的。很多時(shí)候這是結(jié)果，但不是目的。
我們的目的是，不論你的領(lǐng)域和背景是什么，所有人都可以坐在一起，探討最有趣的，最引人注目的，最具創(chuàng)新性的和可以解決項(xiàng)目問題的想法，因?yàn)槲覀儗?duì)于可以創(chuàng)造出具有美學(xué)、功能性和識(shí)別度的設(shè)計(jì)抱有極大的熱情，所做的一切都是為了可以激發(fā)出更好的設(shè)計(jì)理念。因此從項(xiàng)目開始到結(jié)束，所有人都互相協(xié)作，而且沒有等級(jí)劃分。
基于這一公司理念，當(dāng)我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)劇院時(shí)不會(huì)按照先讓建筑師設(shè)計(jì)然后再讓景觀設(shè)計(jì)師介入這樣的工作流程進(jìn)行，雖然這是很多公司出于實(shí)用主義而常用的工作流程，但在Sn?hetta我們一直在不倡導(dǎo)這樣做。因?yàn)楫?dāng)所有的設(shè)計(jì)參與者不能同時(shí)接觸這個(gè)項(xiàng)目時(shí)，就很難產(chǎn)生跨學(xué)科的自由交流。所有參與者在項(xiàng)目早期一同達(dá)成這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的設(shè)計(jì)理念是我們非常重要的文化，因此最終的設(shè)計(jì)結(jié)果也通常能展現(xiàn)出公眾與場(chǎng)所之間多層次的互動(dòng)可能性。不論是這個(gè)屋頂作為城市集會(huì)空間的劇院，還是我們?nèi)ツ暝谥ゼ痈缧陆ǔ傻某鞘休p軌上的圖書館，都產(chǎn)生了這樣的結(jié)果。
所以，我想說的另一方面就是，我們非常欣賞和尊重每個(gè)人不同的背景和專業(yè)性。雖然讓我們每個(gè)人都成為全領(lǐng)域的專家是不切實(shí)際的，但是重要的是大家都參與到設(shè)計(jì)概念的討論過程。之后我們?cè)倬劢沟讲煌瑢I(yè)分工上開展設(shè)計(jì)，并努力達(dá)到最高質(zhì)量的成果。專注自身領(lǐng)域與團(tuán)隊(duì)協(xié)作同樣重要，這也是我們一直在努力的方向。
Norwegian National Opera and Ballet ?Sn?hetta
Calgary's new Central Library ?Sn?hetta
Sure, Oslo Opera House is a great example. It was complete by the time I joined the firm. But I think there's a couple of important aspects on how to think and work within design.
There is an interest at Sn?hetta in working together across different disciplines. There are architects, landscape architects, interiors, graphics, and product design. We all different points of view and experiences. And there's sort of two ways that I think about it. One is that the idea is we do not set out to erase the distinction between, say, building, and landscape. Sometimes that is an outcome, but it's not the goal.
The goal is to come together around a table, regardless of our disciplines and backgrounds. We look for the ideas that are most interesting, compelling, innovative, and address the program. Because we are all very excited when we can create functional responses that also embody beauty and recognize the human experience. So it's really about that idea generation. We're all at the table from the beginning and throughout the project. It's about reducing a hierarchy in how we work.
So it's not that, for example, when we have an opera that we need to design that the architects do some work and they have some ideas that they then come and get the landscape architects later and say, we have an idea of what we are trying to do. Now, how do you interface? That is a very common approach in practice, sometimes for very pragmatic reasons, but it’s what we try to avoid. But when you're not sitting next to each other, you don't have that fluidity or that ease of access. It is a deep commitment to come together early and create an idea together. So, the outcomes often embody greater access and generosity for the public to engage with places. Whether that's the opera, where the roof is a civic gathering space or other projects like the library we opened a year ago in Calgary, the new central library, with a light rail line that cut the site in half.
The other thing I wanted to mention about the way that we're working is that we really value and respect the knowledge that people build within their disciplines. It's important to work together. And then we have an idea. It's too much for any of us to be an expert in everything. Then we look to the disciplines that people have focused on and committed to and have spent our lives trying to execute work in the highest possible way. That focus is just as important as collaboration. So that's what we're trying to do.
█ Sn?hetta似乎并沒有一個(gè)具體的風(fēng)格，但是很多時(shí)候又能一眼看出是你們的設(shè)計(jì)。你們是如何讓不同的想法具有各自特點(diǎn)，同時(shí)又使得公司整體的風(fēng)格具有可辨識(shí)性呢？
There's no specific design style, but we can still recognize Sn?hetta’s work. How can you make individual’s idea shines and meanwhile keeps the style for the whole company?
M：當(dāng)有了可以驅(qū)動(dòng)設(shè)計(jì)的主要概念時(shí)，我們并不會(huì)直接用這個(gè)想法去轉(zhuǎn)化成設(shè)計(jì)方案，而是以此為靈感。我認(rèn)為這是幫助我們?cè)谧罱K得到獨(dú)特設(shè)計(jì)方案的部分原因。
我們的項(xiàng)目設(shè)計(jì)概念實(shí)際上是我們的思考方式。我們可能很難說出最初的設(shè)計(jì)概念是什么，但是它為我們確定設(shè)計(jì)方案提供了線索。我想這就是為什么我們沒有一個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)手冊(cè)來告訴你Sn?hetta的設(shè)計(jì)是什么樣的，但是我很肯定你會(huì)看到這些線索一次次地出現(xiàn)在我們的項(xiàng)目中。
其中一個(gè)很重要的線索就是，我們總是在想如何讓更多人可以體驗(yàn)到一個(gè)空間。以我們大劇院的項(xiàng)目為例，人們并不知道或是很難發(fā)現(xiàn)，當(dāng)圍繞著建筑物走一圈，建筑就像被窗戶和玻璃“打開”了。人們可以透過它們看到建筑內(nèi)部發(fā)生的事情，看到道具制作、服裝制作等等的場(chǎng)景，這些都像是表演里魔幻情節(jié)帶來的體驗(yàn)一樣。但是我們并不總是從這種角度來思考。
因?yàn)轶w驗(yàn)并不只是你可以進(jìn)入大劇院內(nèi)部或是觀看一場(chǎng)表演，它更廣泛的意義可以是帶領(lǐng)人們了解幕后發(fā)生的事情。也許有一個(gè)愛動(dòng)手制作東西的人，他之前并不了解劇團(tuán)背后有著道具制作的工作，但正因?yàn)樵谶@里看到了，所以他真正想做的事情開始變得有意義；也許有對(duì)表演感興趣的人，最終加入了芭蕾舞團(tuán)或是歌劇團(tuán)；也許……。目睹這些平時(shí)隱藏在建筑內(nèi)部的事情讓人們受到邀約，獲得感召。
你會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)我們所做的建筑和景觀設(shè)計(jì)都在回應(yīng)我們希望人們參與其中這個(gè)線索。因此，通常可能會(huì)看到很多建筑內(nèi)外的轉(zhuǎn)接空間，這些空間既具有使用功能，又引導(dǎo)人們進(jìn)入。這些都是我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)的線索，如果你仔細(xì)觀察就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)我們項(xiàng)目的共同點(diǎn)。
550 Madison Public Garden, ?Sn?hetta
“Under” – Europe’s First Underwater Restaurant ?Sn?hetta
When we think about a concept or an idea that is driving a design, I think part of what helps us arrive at somewhat unique solutions is that we don't rely on an idea being directly translated. We rely on it as an inspiration.
So when we talk about concept design on a project, we’re talking about the concept of our way of thinking. The viewer may never actually be able to tell you what that original concept is, but it gives us the thread or the connection to work around. So, I think that is one reason why we don't have a series of design handbooks where you can necessarily see what a Sn?hetta design looks like. But I do think you see threads and the threads come out overtimes.
The idea is that we're really interested in how you can open up greater access. So, going back to the opera, what people often don't know or don't see right away is that when you walk around the perimeter of that building, we opened it up with using windows and glass. We opened up views into the back of house places where people are building sets, making costumes, and doing things that are part of the magic of the performance when you go to see a show. But we don't always think about that or recognize that.
So, access is not just being able to go inside or being able to afford a show, but access in a broader sense, helps people see what's happening behind the scenes. And maybe there's someone that they never knew about, that they would have a future being a part of ballet or an opera because they love building things and what they really want to do is beginning to make sense. And to see these otherwise hidden activities and witness them is a part of that invitation.
So, I think you start to see responses in both our architecture and landscape that are about bringing people in and inviting people to participate. And so that often is maybe seeing more visibility inside the building or to a space outside that is intended to be a place to occupy and play as well as the way that you enter a space. I think those are some of the threads that if you look closely that you can start to see through a commonality in the work.
█ 聽說您在小時(shí)候時(shí)就接觸到了景觀和建造，您是如何走上景觀設(shè)計(jì)之路的？
I know that you had a lot of resource in communicating with landscape and infrastructure in your childhood. How did you take a journey to landscape architecture?
M：小時(shí)候，我其實(shí)并不知道我未來會(huì)成為一名景觀設(shè)計(jì)師，但當(dāng)我每每在職業(yè)發(fā)展過程中回顧過去，會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)景觀從我的童年開始就一直貫穿在我的生活中，之后我就意識(shí)到了那些當(dāng)時(shí)并不起眼的經(jīng)歷與現(xiàn)在的聯(lián)系。
我在北愛荷華州的一個(gè)鄉(xiāng)村環(huán)境中長(zhǎng)大，那里人口不多但是景觀資源豐富。我和所有的孩子一樣，把空閑時(shí)間全都花在探索室外環(huán)境和想象世界的樣子上。不過不同的是，我在很小的時(shí)候就開始做一些景觀構(gòu)筑物了。那時(shí)候我大概7、8歲，我記得我父母曾砍倒了一棵樹，砍下的樹枝都堆在我家后院。在一個(gè)冬天，我突然想做一個(gè)屬于自己的冰屋。我就用所有的樹枝做了一個(gè)圓頂結(jié)構(gòu)，然后把雪拍在上面，在頂上還留了一個(gè)洞，這樣就可以在里面生火，于是那個(gè)冬天我在那個(gè)小小的庇護(hù)所里待了好幾周。我想，我對(duì)于改變環(huán)境以及體驗(yàn)環(huán)境的興趣是貫穿了我整個(gè)職業(yè)生涯的。
不過，我是上了大學(xué)之后才知道的景觀設(shè)計(jì)。在那之前，我都沒有聽說過這個(gè)行業(yè)，因?yàn)樵谖议L(zhǎng)大的地方，那里并沒有公認(rèn)的景觀設(shè)計(jì)，所以我一直在探索我喜歡從事的行業(yè)。整個(gè)青蔥時(shí)代，我都十分熱愛藝術(shù)，并且一直在學(xué)習(xí)藝術(shù)知識(shí)和制作藝術(shù)品。我發(fā)現(xiàn)大地藝術(shù)家的作品之所以如此鼓動(dòng)人心，是因?yàn)樗麄冊(cè)诤?jiǎn)單的景觀環(huán)境中所創(chuàng)造出了遠(yuǎn)超其環(huán)境本身的體驗(yàn)。比如說Christo創(chuàng)作的Running Fence和Robert Smithson 創(chuàng)作的Spiral Jetty還有其他的景觀作品，它們都向我傳達(dá)了同一個(gè)思想，就是我可以讓人們以全新的方式看待周遭的景觀，可以通過景觀設(shè)計(jì)講述一段故事，一段歷史乃至表達(dá)一個(gè)觀點(diǎn)。大地藝術(shù)家們?cè)覀儸F(xiàn)在一樣，思考著周邊的環(huán)境。所以我們現(xiàn)在做的并不是一個(gè)新的事情，只是運(yùn)用了不同的方法。
在大學(xué)學(xué)習(xí)景觀時(shí)，我發(fā)現(xiàn)藝術(shù)與美感是連接人與場(chǎng)地的紐帶。另外，我對(duì)城市環(huán)境十分好奇，同時(shí)對(duì)人們?nèi)绾闻c我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)的場(chǎng)所進(jìn)行互動(dòng)也很感興趣。當(dāng)時(shí)我還不明白，但我現(xiàn)在意識(shí)到，創(chuàng)造連接人，歷史，故事以及環(huán)境的空間，這就是景觀設(shè)計(jì)。
Christo and Jeanne-Claude Running Fence, Sonoma and Marin Counties, California, 1972-76 Photo: Wolfgang Volz ?1976 Christo
Robert Smithson, Spiral Jetty, 1970.
?Holt/Smithson Foundation and Dia Art Foundation/Licensed by VAGA at Artists Rights Society (ARS), NY. Photo: George Steinmetz
Boulder Park, Nora Springs, IA
I certainly didn't know as a young person that I would be a landscape architect, but I think it's been helpful at different points in my career to look back at those experiences that really stand out, that have come throughout my childhood and my entire life. Then you start to see these connections that you didn't know meant anything at the time that you were experiencing it.
When I was young, I grew up in a very rural part of northern Iowa. There's a lot of landscape, but not a lot of people. I spent all my free time outdoors exploring, imagining worlds as any child does. But I started making things in the landscape at a very young age. I remember that my parents had a tree cut down for some reason. For a while, all the branches and everything was in our backyard. And one winter I decided to make my version of the igloo. I was seven or eight or something. And I remember I took all the branches and I built this dome structure and packed snow around. It had an opening because you can build fires inside. I went indoors and got some matches. And I built this little shelter that I just hung out for however many weeks it lasted through the winter. But I think that connection to an interest in shaping the land and just experimenting has been threaded throughout my whole career.
I learned about landscape architecture after I went to undergraduate school. Before that, I hadn't heard of it as a profession. There weren't a lot of recognizably designed landscapes in the area where I grew up. So I was trying to figure out what I was interested in. All throughout my youth, I loved art. I was always learning about art and making things. I learned about earthwork artists which were just so incredibly powerful and inspirational to me because they're making new experiences out of what they found or introducing something very simple into the landscape, such as Christo’s running fence or Roberts Smithson’s spiral jetty. And many of these places throughout my life, passed me the idea that you can help people see the landscape around them in a new way. And you can bring out stories and histories and a point of view. As earthwork artists, they're thinking a lot about the environment at that time, just as we are today. What we're doing today isn't new. We're just doing it in a little bit different way.
When I learned about landscape architecture in college, I started to find that the thread was between art and beauty and what draws us to places and connects us to places. And I also had this strong curiosity and interest in urban environments and how people interact with places that we make. I didn't know then, but I figured out that is landscape architecture. We make places that connect people, history, stories, and environment.
02 / 跨學(xué)科的設(shè)計(jì)實(shí)踐
Transdisciplinary Practice
█ 你可以介紹一下Sn?hetta的紐約辦公室么？和其他的辦公室相比，紐約辦公室有什么特點(diǎn)？
Can you tell us something about the New York office? Among other branches all over the world, what is the unique of the New York office?
M：在全球范圍內(nèi)，我們有7個(gè)辦公室，紐約辦公室是最大的辦公室之一。我們以建筑設(shè)計(jì)師為主，一共大概有43個(gè)建筑師，18個(gè)景觀設(shè)計(jì)師，4個(gè)室內(nèi)設(shè)計(jì)師和市場(chǎng)運(yùn)營(yíng)的團(tuán)隊(duì)。我們?cè)谂f金山也有一個(gè)小的辦公室。雖然這兩個(gè)辦公室在不同地點(diǎn)，但是我們是作為一個(gè)整體來運(yùn)營(yíng)的。通常，我們的項(xiàng)目都在美國(guó)境內(nèi)，現(xiàn)在手上在做項(xiàng)目多數(shù)在加拿大、美國(guó)，少數(shù)在南美。
雖然我們各個(gè)辦公室專注在不同地域的項(xiàng)目上，但彼此之間并不是相對(duì)孤立的，我們會(huì)互相合作。我們希望建立起這種密切聯(lián)系，而基于地域的組織方式正好有助于此，同時(shí)我們各地的辦公室會(huì)相互共享很多東西。我們公司，作為一個(gè)實(shí)踐主體，一直以來都希望與有著不同學(xué)科背景和地處不同地方的人們一同工作。
我們每一個(gè)城市的辦公室都有一張占據(jù)很大空間的桌子，可供很多人一起開展工作。我們也有一個(gè)公共區(qū)域，大家經(jīng)常一起坐在那里休息、聊天和吃午飯。日常時(shí)間我們會(huì)和客戶一起舉辦研討會(huì)，我們大家會(huì)一起畫圖，做模型，與我們的同事和其他領(lǐng)域的合作者們探索設(shè)計(jì)理念。因?yàn)槲覀兊目蛻敉ǔ６际莵碜杂诓煌臋C(jī)構(gòu)和組織，所以我認(rèn)為將我們緊密聯(lián)系在一起的就是我們共同合作的工作方式。
Photo of New York office ?Sn?hetta
We have 7 offices now in different parts of the world, and the office in New York is one of our larger offices within our company. The majority of architects are in New York with about eighteen landscape architects, forty-three architects, four interior architects and a team of communications people and administrative. We also have a small studio in San Francisco. The SF and NYC offices sit in two places, but we operate them as a single entity. Generally, our business is focus within the United States. Most of our work right now is in Canada, US and a little bit in South America.
Although our offices have a little bit of a geographic focus, they are not mutually exclusive. We collaborate our work together. We want to have that personal connection. So that geographic focus, I think helps with it. There are many things that are shared across all the offices. We, as a practice, are committed to that idea and way of working with different disciplines and people from different places.
The one thing you would find in every office is that we have a large amount of space that's devoted to large tables where we can come together and really do work together. We also provide a communal space in our offices where we often sit and have lunch together. We have workshops with our clients. And we make drawings and models and explore ideas not only with the people working in Sn?hetta, but also with our other collaborators. Our clients are usually a group of people who come from different agencies or different parts of an organization. And I think what ties us together is the way of working and approaching the work together.
█ 在項(xiàng)目設(shè)計(jì)中，你們會(huì)包攬建筑、景觀設(shè)計(jì)甚至是室內(nèi)設(shè)計(jì)嗎？
When working projects, will your office take over everything from architecture, landscape architecture and interior?
M：我們一直都在努力進(jìn)行跨學(xué)科的合作，哪怕只是設(shè)計(jì)一個(gè)室內(nèi)的項(xiàng)目，一把椅子，或是一個(gè)公共室外空間。我認(rèn)為，客戶之所以經(jīng)常選擇我們，就是希望我們可以提供上述各種方面的設(shè)計(jì)服務(wù)。
負(fù)責(zé)任地說，我們幾乎所有的項(xiàng)目都是既負(fù)責(zé)建筑設(shè)計(jì)又負(fù)責(zé)景觀設(shè)計(jì)的。通常，這也意味著需要進(jìn)行室內(nèi)設(shè)計(jì)。當(dāng)然，有些時(shí)候客戶找我們只是想做文化建筑單體，我們就會(huì)和他們溝通，表達(dá)我們以自己的工作方式來做項(xiàng)目效果才會(huì)達(dá)到最好。在后續(xù)的交流和工作的開展中，也逐漸在向我們所希望的多學(xué)科協(xié)同合作的方式去靠近。
550 Madison Public Garden Rendering, ?Sn?hetta
We try to bring people together across the disciplines. Even if it's an interior project, an object, like a chair or something, or a landscape architecture space of public space, we will still engage within the studio across the disciplines. I will say though, that people often hire us because they want us to provide all of those services.
I should say almost all, we rarely have a project where we're not responsible for both architecture and landscape architecture. And typically, that means interiors on some level. But we sometimes have that happen during the selection process when we're brought in. Some clients have hired us because they have a cultural building that they want us to do. Then we say, for us to do our best work, it's important that we work in this way. And then we continue that dialogue and it evolves through that. But it's always a presence in the way we're looking.
█ 美國(guó)第二大瀑布威拉米特瀑布濱水景觀是你和團(tuán)隊(duì)正在進(jìn)行的項(xiàng)目，現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)在施工過程了么？可以分享一下設(shè)計(jì)背后的故事么？
The Willamette Falls Riverwalk is the project you are working on right now. Is it under construction? And what is the story behind the design?
M：這個(gè)項(xiàng)目自2015年開始到現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)進(jìn)行了很多年了。場(chǎng)地的情況十分復(fù)雜，而且客戶由多個(gè)公共機(jī)構(gòu)組織共同構(gòu)成。
波特蘭通用電氣公司一直在使用水力發(fā)電的大壩。壩河兩岸土地的持有者之間有很深厚的聯(lián)系，其中的一個(gè)持有者在去年夏天剛剛買下了我們的設(shè)計(jì)場(chǎng)地。所以當(dāng)我們開始施工的時(shí)候，土地所有者與之前不一樣了。當(dāng)?shù)氐墓矙C(jī)構(gòu)，包括市級(jí)、縣級(jí)和州政府和地鐵公司建立了伙伴關(guān)系并且與土地所有者達(dá)成共同協(xié)議，征用其土地以開放河岸給市民休閑使用。從這一角度出發(fā)，我們也在努力進(jìn)行項(xiàng)目愿景勾畫和概念設(shè)計(jì)。
當(dāng)場(chǎng)地土地持有者發(fā)生改變的時(shí)候，我們正在進(jìn)行項(xiàng)目第一階段的施工。他們對(duì)于我們將河岸開放給公眾的想法非常贊同，并也逐步參與到項(xiàng)目中來。當(dāng)然，我們整個(gè)的工作方式也根據(jù)現(xiàn)在土地持有者的意見做了一些調(diào)整，未來我們也還要繼續(xù)與其進(jìn)行外沿服務(wù)合作和相互學(xué)習(xí)。我們希望通過我們的努力，在第一階段的設(shè)計(jì)施工完成后，公眾可以回到這個(gè)150年來都被工業(yè)行業(yè)占領(lǐng)而無法安全通行的河岸。
在這個(gè)行業(yè)中，耐心十分重要。這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的資金都是以不同的形式來源于各種渠道的，因此我們希望對(duì)所有人的提出建議都有所回饋，也十分理解并愿意去接受場(chǎng)地的各種復(fù)雜關(guān)系。在保留而不是清除場(chǎng)地的現(xiàn)有情況意味著實(shí)現(xiàn)我們的設(shè)計(jì)想法會(huì)是一個(gè)很艱辛的過程。但是我仍然很樂觀，并且認(rèn)為終有一天這里會(huì)變成一個(gè)讓人覺得不可思議的場(chǎng)所。
一個(gè)多世紀(jì)以來，這個(gè)令人驚嘆的地方一直被沿水邊修建的工業(yè)基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施切斷了公共通道 ?Snohetta
Sn?hetta主要公共景觀的設(shè)計(jì)希望將找回完整的瀑布的高度和崎嶇的海岸線，重新連接其壯觀的海濱城市 ?Snohetta
Public Engagement Process for Willamette Falls Riverwalk Restoration ? Snohetta
We started in 2015. It's been a while, but this is one of those places that is incredibly complex. Multiple public agencies are part of this client team.
Portland General Electric still operates the hydroelectric dam. Several confederate tribes have deep connections. And one of the tribes just purchased the site this summer. So when we started our work there was a different landowner. The public agencies include the city, the county, the state, and the metro government. They had formed a partnership together and an agreement with the landowner to have an easement to provide public access back to the riverfront. So we were working to do the vision and the concept design through that lens.
We had been working on the first phase when one of the tribes purchased the land. And they have been getting more and more involved. They're very excited about continuing to move towards the vision that we put together. But it changes our way of working a little bit. And there's just an ongoing need for outreach and learning. I think we'll be working towards phase one which will open up access and be able to bring the public back to this site. Because the site has been used for about 150 years for being industry. It's been closed and not safe for people to just walk through.
Patience is really important in this profession. I know funding is coming from different sources and in different ways. We want to make sure that all voices are heard and that the complexity of that site is valued. And I think, in fact, retained and not wiped away means that there's a process that has to be incredibly rigorous and diligent. But I'm very optimistic. And I think one day it'll be a pretty incredible place.
█ 我認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)極具挑戰(zhàn)的項(xiàng)目，尤其是河岸兩側(cè)都被工業(yè)遺存所占據(jù)。對(duì)于生態(tài)方面，你們是打算如何維護(hù)呢？
I think it's a very challenging project because it has other industries surrounding the riverfront. So how do you rein restore the ecology?
M：通過調(diào)查研究歷史照片和與自然科學(xué)家、水文學(xué)家的合作，我們已經(jīng)發(fā)現(xiàn)了很多維護(hù)的生態(tài)可能性。尤其是從生態(tài)棲息地的角度看，這個(gè)項(xiàng)目為消除阻礙棲息地發(fā)展的不良因素提供了一個(gè)很好的契機(jī)。比如，今天在現(xiàn)場(chǎng)，你很難發(fā)現(xiàn)歷史遺留的水渠穿過場(chǎng)地。在一些地方，棲息地被水填滿，自然高地上建成了新的平臺(tái)。如果我們可以像做外科手術(shù)一樣把這些移除，我們就可以和生態(tài)學(xué)家、科學(xué)家合作，恢復(fù)作為動(dòng)植物新家園的生態(tài)棲息地，并使之成為自然河岸景觀的一部分。
雖然這一切在當(dāng)下還很難看到最后的成果，但是得益于場(chǎng)地潛在的巨大可能性以及客戶和周圍社區(qū)的強(qiáng)力支持都會(huì)使其在未來實(shí)現(xiàn)我們的設(shè)想。
?Snohetta
By studying the surveys, historic photos, and working with scientists, hydrologists, and natural scientists, we found that there's so much that's already in place. So especially from a habitat standpoint, there's a great opportunity to remove some of what's there that is keeping the natural habitat from flourishing. We're doing that very surgically to open up areas that can provide new homes for habitat. For example, you can't easily see when you're on-site today that there are historic tailraces that come through the site. In some places, these habitats have been filled in, or a platform built over the natural landform. If we just remove that, then we can come in and work with ecologists and scientists to restore habitat in places that are perfectly natural for it to be there as part of this soft ecology riverfront.
It's hard to see right now, but there are incredible potential and a huge commitment from the client group and the community around that being a real core part of the future.
█ 設(shè)計(jì)師有時(shí)會(huì)遇到客戶改變想法，甚至最終選擇了其他設(shè)計(jì)師的作品。您對(duì)于遇到這樣的情況會(huì)怎么處理？
Designers sometimes meet the situation that their clients change or choose another work in the end. Do you have any suggestions for that situation?
M：我希望大家可以看到項(xiàng)目設(shè)計(jì)過程本身的價(jià)值。只要你享受并且珍惜這個(gè)過程，始終保持好奇心并從中汲取靈感，即便因?yàn)榉N種原因使得項(xiàng)目最終沒有建成，那些與其他人一同工作，開拓自己視野的過程依然是很好的經(jīng)驗(yàn)。
另一方面，在公司從事設(shè)計(jì)工作的好處是，你會(huì)接觸到與你日常生活的地方不同的社區(qū)文化和環(huán)境，而且在你不熟悉的環(huán)境中工作會(huì)為你打開一扇新的大門。在這個(gè)過程中，你會(huì)面臨很多挑戰(zhàn)，為了建立設(shè)計(jì)與當(dāng)?shù)氐穆?lián)系，你需要通過當(dāng)?shù)氐暮献骰锇閬砹私庠搱?chǎng)地。
I imagine for others to see the value in the process. If you can enjoy and value that process and be inquisitive and curious and pull inspiration from that, when something doesn't work out, that experience of spending time with people in that openness is an invitation.
On the other hand, one of the benefits of working for firms is that you work in different communities from where you live. Your eyes are wide open when you're working in a place that you're less familiar with. There's a lot of challenges and we rely a lot on our local partners in relationships to learn about that place. Because the place is really where the work comes from and where we want to connect to.
█ 您提到過曾經(jīng)與丈夫一起設(shè)計(jì)了他的餐廳。這同樣也影響了您的工作和設(shè)計(jì)的方式。您能分享一些其中的故事么？你們是怎么相互影響的？
You mentioned that you worked with your husband on designing his restaurants. And it also influences the way you work and design. Would you like to share more stories? And how would you influence each other?
M：當(dāng)你和某個(gè)人結(jié)婚后，你們會(huì)在一起談?wù)撊魏问虑椤Ｎ艺J(rèn)為與有創(chuàng)造力的、熱愛塑造空間的、并思考自己所創(chuàng)造的空間會(huì)被如何使用的人建立關(guān)系，會(huì)對(duì)彼此產(chǎn)生很大的影響。不論我們所從事的領(lǐng)域是什么，這些想法都會(huì)自然而然、從內(nèi)而外地分享給彼此。
他從事的領(lǐng)域是餐飲業(yè)。但是，我從他對(duì)于與人互動(dòng)的看法中學(xué)習(xí)到了很多。我對(duì)他一直很欣賞的一點(diǎn)是，他將餐廳視為一種身臨其境體驗(yàn)的發(fā)生地。他認(rèn)為，食物只是餐廳之所以吸引人們前去的一部分原因，而更多的原因則是在邀請(qǐng)人們進(jìn)入到一個(gè)社交空間來獲得一次驚喜的、美好的、微微不同于日常生活的體驗(yàn)。雖然我們所從事的領(lǐng)域不同，但是我們都很贊同這一理念。
他同所有設(shè)計(jì)師一樣，十分清楚自己想要什么，我也很尊重他的想法。在他的領(lǐng)域，我更多的是起到一個(gè)提供更多的設(shè)計(jì)可能性的輔助角色。反過來，在我的領(lǐng)域也是同樣的。所以，我不會(huì)說是我們一起設(shè)計(jì)了他的餐廳，因?yàn)槲腋嗟氖窃谥С炙约疤岢鲆恍┳约旱目捶?。但整個(gè)過程真是棒極了，我也確實(shí)幫助他建造了其中的一些空間。
在我的職業(yè)生涯中學(xué)到的是，當(dāng)你有機(jī)會(huì)親手建造某些東西時(shí)， 你會(huì)用不同的方式思考設(shè)計(jì)。我們以前時(shí)常會(huì)開玩笑說，等餐廳建成了我們就可以結(jié)婚了，我們一同頂住了那些壓力，因此我們可以保持一個(gè)長(zhǎng)期的關(guān)系。現(xiàn)在距離我們結(jié)婚也已經(jīng)過去一段時(shí)間了，當(dāng)初的玩笑也已經(jīng)成真。
Mario's Double Daughter's Salotto, Denver, CO
When you're married to someone, you talk about everything. I think it has had a strong influence to have a relationship with someone who is creative, designing spaces, and thinking about how people inhabit those spaces. Those are all shared across inside and outside whatever we're doing.
So, his platform happens to be restaurants. I think I've learned a lot from his point of view about observations and engagement with people. And one thing I’ve always admired about him is that he sees a restaurant as an immersive experience. Food is just one part of going to a restaurant from his point of view. It is just one component of inviting people into a social space to have an experience that takes them a little bit out of their daily life with something surprising or beautiful. I think we share this thread regardless that our disciplines and areas of working are very different.
He has a very strong idea about what he likes just like any designer. I respect that. And when I’m in that realm, I am more someone to bounce ideas off and help in any way that I can. And the same in my realm. So, I would not say by any means that we design his restaurants together but I’m mostly there to be supportive and offer ideas. It's been amazing. I’ve helped him literally build some of those spaces.
And what I’ve learned over my career doing that is that I think when you have the opportunity to build something, you really think about design differently. We used to joke that once we built that together, the restaurant that I showed earlier today, that we knew we could get married because we could go through that kind of stress. We knew we could have a long relationship together. It's been a while now. So, it seems to work.
03 / 給設(shè)計(jì)專業(yè)學(xué)生的建議
Advice for Design students
█ 您曾在科羅拉多大學(xué)執(zhí)教。考慮到您的教學(xué)經(jīng)驗(yàn)和實(shí)踐經(jīng)驗(yàn)，您認(rèn)為學(xué)生在學(xué)校里應(yīng)該著重學(xué)習(xí)些什么？對(duì)于他們您有什么建議么？
I know you taught classes at the University of Colorado several years ago. Considering your teaching experience and practice experience, what do you think students should learn at school? Do you have any advices for them?
M：我認(rèn)為可以從不同的角度來思考這個(gè)問題。學(xué)校是一個(gè)來學(xué)習(xí)和形成自己設(shè)計(jì)脈絡(luò)和思考方式的地方。所以你需要保持好奇心，去找到可以清晰表達(dá)你想法的方式，明白你的想法的重要體現(xiàn)在哪里，又是什么促使它形成，以及你要如何用不同方式把你的想法傳達(dá)給他人。我認(rèn)為你還需要學(xué)習(xí)如何眾多的設(shè)計(jì)可能性、之前的研究和前期分析中提取出核心想法。從周圍信息中提取并消化成你所理解和掌握的信息是最應(yīng)該學(xué)習(xí)的能力之一。
當(dāng)然，景觀設(shè)計(jì)是一個(gè)非常技術(shù)性的職業(yè)，我們需要學(xué)習(xí)很多東西才能最后落成一個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)。所以我想說，了解行業(yè)的復(fù)雜性也是十分必要的。外界因素既可以成就一個(gè)項(xiàng)目也可以摧毀一個(gè)項(xiàng)目。對(duì)此感到好奇并知道我們并不是一個(gè)孤立的領(lǐng)域十分重要，無論你的設(shè)計(jì)想法多么出彩，如果你不能向外界傳達(dá)你的想法或是不理解預(yù)算和項(xiàng)目的限制，再好的想法都無法實(shí)現(xiàn)。
當(dāng)然，學(xué)習(xí)畫畫和通過接觸其他領(lǐng)域以不同方式獲得靈感對(duì)設(shè)計(jì)也很有幫助。我們都知道現(xiàn)在的電腦繪圖工具對(duì)于我們快速表達(dá)設(shè)計(jì)想法很重要。但是我認(rèn)為在學(xué)生時(shí)代，更重要的是嘗試和學(xué)習(xí)不同的表達(dá)媒介，比如手繪，手作模型等等，這樣你的思想和身體都參與到設(shè)計(jì)過程中幫助你獲取靈感。另外，我認(rèn)為學(xué)習(xí)不同的繪圖方法也非常重要，原因是你可以探索不同的想法并且通過不同的繪圖方式交流你的想法。這樣，你用不同的繪圖方式就學(xué)到了不同的東西。
我不是說不要學(xué)習(xí)電腦繪圖軟件，這也是設(shè)計(jì)的表達(dá)方式之一，但是我認(rèn)為我們有時(shí)候太依賴于此了。我喜歡把電腦里的圖按比例打印出來，這樣會(huì)讓我有更好的尺度感。在公司里，我希望所有的圖都是有比例的。這樣在我想在設(shè)計(jì)中加些東西的時(shí)候我可以很方便地測(cè)量尺寸，在測(cè)量之后我就可以跟同事說，做個(gè)15英寸的東西比較合適。我們?cè)谒O(shè)計(jì)的空間里感覺會(huì)是什么樣的呢？想必我們只有把自己放進(jìn)那個(gè)空間才會(huì)有直觀的想象，因?yàn)闊o論如何，空間不是一個(gè)供人觀賞的物體，對(duì)吧？
ArchiDogs interview with Michelle Delk at ASLA’19 San Diego
I think that you can think about this in different ways. I think this is the time to learn and form a process for yourself of design and way of thinking. So, you need to be curious, really try to find ways to clearly communicate your ideas, why they are important, what's informing them, and how to communicate them to the people that you'll be working within any number of ways. I think you need to learn how to communicate and investigate ideas and extract out of so much possibility, research, and exploration that happens. Extracting and editing something that you can really get your arms around is one of the most important things to learn.
Of course, this is a very technical profession. And there's a lot of things we have to learn about how to execute our work. So also I would say it’s important to understand this and get an idea about what that complexity is. Everything that influences us can build and execute a project. Being curious about that and knowing that it's not an isolated realm. It doesn't matter sometimes how amazing your design idea is. If you can't talk to people about it or understand a budget and the constraints around what you can build, then it won’t happen.
Obviously, learning to draw and explore ideas in a variety of ways is also very helpful. We all know that the digital tools that we have are incredibly important and useful in allowing us to rapidly explore and express ideas. But I think when you're a student, it is better to experiment with and learn different ways of drawing, modeling, making things with your hand so that you can design both with your mind and with your body and be able to explore and feel sketching. I think learning different tools and methods of drawing is really important. And I guess the reason I think that's important is that we can explore different ideas and communicate ideas through these different methods. And you learn different things by drawing in different ways.
I am not saying don't learn digital. That's one of the ways we can draw and communicate. But I think there is sometimes too much reliance on it. Understand the scale and take things out of the computer and print it to scale. I want everything to have a scale at the firm. I want to have something so I can measure it. And then I can say to you, does something that is 15 feet feel good. What's the feeling like for us to be in that space? Because we have to put ourselves in the space when we're imagining it. It's not an object, right?
「講座推薦Michelle Delk at GSD」
Daniel Urban Kiley Lecture
https://www.gsd.harvard.edu/event/michelle-delk/
時(shí)長(zhǎng) 78 mins
Michelle giving a lecture
作為紐約市城市設(shè)計(jì)論壇的活躍董事，文化景觀基金會(huì)管理委員會(huì)的成員，Michelle在世界各地參與會(huì)議，也在大學(xué)和社區(qū)發(fā)表演講。這一講座介紹了她在Sn?hetta的一些項(xiàng)目項(xiàng)目實(shí)踐，包括占地22英畝的后工業(yè)遺址生態(tài)修復(fù)：俄勒岡州的威拉米特河瀑布景觀設(shè)計(jì)，布萊斯德爾中心的再設(shè)計(jì)，以及曼哈頓中城一個(gè)重要的公共廣場(chǎng)設(shè)計(jì)。
訪談｜栗茜Sherry Li, 楊淏玥Haoyue Yang
文案｜楊淏玥Haoyue Yang, 潘雨辛Yuxin Pan, 李鑫然Sara Li
攝影｜Chao Sun 孫超
編輯｜Winnie
審核編輯｜Yibo
版權(quán)?建道筑格ArchiDogs，轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)聯(lián)系media@archidogs.com
若有涉及任何版權(quán)問題，請(qǐng)聯(lián)系media@archidogs.com，我們將盡快妥善處理。
